WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global RolleiClub and...

[R***@aol.com]

nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically correct or
incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others. And regardless of
the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch brothers or any dictionary
definition, i think it is clear that the general association of the word lynching
is with african-americans and totally understand the gentleman's reaction and
simple wish to be respected. If you google the word lynching, note that all
of the photos depict african-americans. note the following google entry about
lynching -

The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch (1736-96), a
justice of the peace who administered rough justice in Virginia. Lynching
was originally a system of punishment used by whites against African American
slaves. However, whites who protested against this were also in danger of
being lynched.

so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who protested
against the lynching of african americans.

so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead and mob
him, whatever - just leave history in the past

[R***@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/18/05 3:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

I stand by my statement and the definition of the word; I'll leave any
ignorance or misinterpretation to the responsibility of those that have
taken offense. Until I see a direct reference to lynching as being specific
to the black experience and limited only to that I'll continue to use the
word as I see fit.
g

Lynching was indeed specific to the black experience as you say in that it's
use on whites was against whites who protested its use on african americans.!
I am caucasian, and I too was taken aback to read the lynching comment. I
take further offense at your escalating this above by labeling we who have taken
offense as ignorant and misinterpreters of the word. Some history should
stay in the past. Just google "lynching" and see how many white faces you see or

The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch (1736-96), a
justice of the peace who administered rough justice in Virginia. Lynching
was originally a system of punishment used by whites against African American
slaves. However, whites who protested against this were also in danger of

[Ruddy Roye]

Thanks man
I wish Doug, Jerry and Bob knew that I do not care so much about their
upstanding white intellect. All I am asking is that we respect each
other. They would never like it if I said something sensitive about
their ancestry or home situation in a manner that would have been
deemed disrespectful.
Racism and bigotry is not something that is left up to interpretation.
It is as clear and sharp as a Planar lens(smile)

Post by R***@aol.com
In a message dated 10/18/05 3:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

I stand by my statement and the definition of the word; I'll leave any
ignorance or misinterpretation to the responsibility of those that have
taken offense. Until I see a direct reference to lynching as being specific
to the black experience and limited only to that I'll continue to use the
word as I see fit.
Doug

Lynching was indeed specific to the black experience as you say in
that it's use on whites was against whites who protested its use on
african americans.!  I am caucasian, and I too was taken aback to read
the lynching comment.  I take further offense at your escalating this
above by labeling we who have taken offense as ignorant and
misinterpreters of the word.  Some history should stay in the past.
 Just google "lynching" and see how many white faces you see or read

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Jerry Lehrer]

Ruddy,

Please feel free to say anything you want about my ancestry.
I don't give a FRA about what strangers say about a subject
about which the know nothing,

So feel free to call me what you want!

Jerry

Post by Ruddy Roye
Thanks man
I wish Doug, Jerry and Bob knew that I do not care so much about their
upstanding white intellect. All I am asking is that we respect each
other. They would never like it if I said something sensitive about
their ancestry or home situation in a manner that would have been
deemed disrespectful.
Racism and bigotry is not something that is left up to interpretation.
It is as clear and sharp as a Planar lens(smile)

Post by R***@aol.com
In a message dated 10/18/05 3:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

I stand by my statement and the definition of the word; I'll leave any
ignorance or misinterpretation to the responsibility of those that have
taken offense. Until I see a direct reference to lynching as being specific
to the black experience and limited only to that I'll continue to use the
word as I see fit.
Doug

Lynching was indeed specific to the black experience as you say in
that it's use on whites was against whites who protested its use on
african americans.! I am caucasian, and I too was taken aback to read
the lynching comment. I take further offense at your escalating this
above by labeling we who have taken offense as ignorant and
misinterpreters of the word. Some history should stay in the past.
Just google "lynching" and see how many white faces you see or read

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
---
Rollei List
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

[Ruddy Roye]

Jerry for now I can only know you through your words.
I do not have to or wish to offend your ancestry.
You alone either embellish their goals and ideals with your tone and
your jockeying for what best bigot or best photographer on the
chatline.
I am cool. I see where you are. You see where I am at.
I would prefer if we exchange pictures rather than these words but you
seem embroiled in only ensuring that the negro stays in his place.
For that I say take back your FRA and FU

Post by Jerry Lehrer
Ruddy,
Please feel free to say anything you want about my ancestry.
I don't give a FRA about what strangers say about a subject
about which the know nothing,
So feel free to call me what you want!
Jerry

Post by Ruddy Roye
Thanks man
I wish Doug, Jerry and Bob knew that I do not care so much about their
upstanding white intellect. All I am asking is that we respect each
other. They would never like it if I said something sensitive about
their ancestry or home situation in a manner that would have been
deemed disrespectful.
Racism and bigotry is not something that is left up to interpretation.
It is as clear and sharp as a Planar lens(smile)

Post by R***@aol.com
In a message dated 10/18/05 3:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

I stand by my statement and the definition of the word; I'll leave any
ignorance or misinterpretation to the responsibility of those that have
taken offense. Until I see a direct reference to lynching as being specific
to the black experience and limited only to that I'll continue to
use
the
word as I see fit.
Doug

Lynching was indeed specific to the black experience as you say in
that it's use on whites was against whites who protested its use on
african americans.! I am caucasian, and I too was taken aback to read
the lynching comment. I take further offense at your escalating this
above by labeling we who have taken offense as ignorant and
misinterpreters of the word. Some history should stay in the past.
Just google "lynching" and see how many white faces you see or read

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
---
Rollei List
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into
www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

---
Rollei List
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Richard Knoppow]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruddy Roye" <***@mac.com>
To: <***@freelists.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Jerry--Offlist

This went to the list. I think this whole thread should
be stopped now.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[Douglas Shea]

Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.



Doug



_____

From: rollei_list-***@freelists.org
[mailto:rollei_list-***@freelists.org] On Behalf Of ***@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
To: ***@freelists.org
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...



nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically correct or
incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others. And regardless of
the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch brothers or any dictionary
definition, i think it is clear that the general association of the word
lynching is with african-americans and totally understand the gentleman's
reaction and simple wish to be respected. If you google the word lynching,
note that all of the photos depict african-americans. note the following
google entry about lynching -





The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch (1736-96), a
justice of the peace who administered rough justice in Virginia. Lynching
was originally a system of punishment used by whites against African
American slaves. However, whites who protested against this were also in
danger of being lynched.




so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who protested
against the lynching of african americans.

so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead and mob
him, whatever - just leave history in the past

[Ruddy Roye]

Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know that there are
things that have happened to people that I should not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach, exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all, photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know. Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course (Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend. "That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
 
Doug
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others.
 And regardless of the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it is clear that the
general association of the word lynching is with african-americans and
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and simple wish to be
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note that all of the
photos depict african-americans.  note the following google entry
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by
whites against African American slaves. However, whites who protested
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who
protested against the lynching of african americans.  
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the past

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[John Jensen]

Boy, the way this discourse is going I don't think I
will ever use B/W film again, particularly high-speed
(greater sensitivity to light).

John

P.S. Perhaps we should end this thread. The last
time was when it was Democrat/Republican,
liberal/conservative and we had several people pick up
their marbles and go elsewhere.

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued
me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind
me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow
member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I
shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might
come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important
to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know
that there are
things that have happened to people that I should
not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being
politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach,
exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all,
photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on
the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach
photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I
photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil
or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the
same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go
away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who
support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat
groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason
believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If
I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers
instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot
about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know.
Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only
good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course
(Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend.
"That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would

turn to for etymology.

Post by Douglas Shea
 
Doug
 

Behalf Of

Post by Douglas Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark

Meijer c/o Global

Post by Douglas Shea
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho,

not politically

Post by Douglas Shea
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being

sensitive to others.

Post by Douglas Shea
 And regardless of the political leanings of

Lynchburg or the Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it

is clear that the

Post by Douglas Shea
general association of the word lynching is with

african-americans and

Post by Douglas Shea
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and

simple wish to be

Post by Douglas Shea
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note

that all of the

Post by Douglas Shea
photos depict african-americans.  note the

following google entry

Post by Douglas Shea
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name

Charles Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered

rough justice in

Post by Douglas Shea
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of

punishment used by

Post by Douglas Shea
whites against African American slaves. However,

whites who protested

Post by Douglas Shea
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against

those whites who

Post by Douglas Shea
protested against the lynching of african

americans.  

Post by Douglas Shea
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei

Scammer, go ahead

Post by Douglas Shea
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the

past
www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
---
Rollei List
with 'subscribe'
in the subject field OR by logging into
www.freelists.org
with
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging
into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

[Ruddy Roye]

I AM DONE AFTER THAT LAST ONE
I THINK I SAID ALL I HAD TO SAY.
I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BUT I HOPE WE SHOOT BETTER THAN WE SPEAK
OUT MINDS.
IN MY LITTLE EXPERIENCE AS A MAN AND PHOTOGRAPHER I HAVE LEARNT THAT
YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO SO......WE SHOOT HOW WE THINK

Post by John Jensen
Boy, the way this discourse is going I don't think I
will ever use B/W film again, particularly high-speed
(greater sensitivity to light).
John
P.S. Perhaps we should end this thread. The last
time was when it was Democrat/Republican,
liberal/conservative and we had several people pick up
their marbles and go elsewhere.

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued
me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind
me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow
member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I
shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might
come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important
to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know
that there are
things that have happened to people that I should
not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being
politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach,
exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all,
photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on
the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach
photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I
photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil
or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the
same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go
away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who
support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat
groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason
believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If
I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers
instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot
about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know.
Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only
good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course
(Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend.
"That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would

turn to for etymology.

Post by Douglas Shea
 
Doug
 

Behalf Of

Post by Douglas Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark

Meijer c/o Global

Post by Douglas Shea
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho,

not politically

Post by Douglas Shea
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being

sensitive to others.

Post by Douglas Shea
 And regardless of the political leanings of

Lynchburg or the Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it

is clear that the

Post by Douglas Shea
general association of the word lynching is with

african-americans and

Post by Douglas Shea
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and

simple wish to be

Post by Douglas Shea
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note

that all of the

Post by Douglas Shea
photos depict african-americans.  note the

following google entry

Post by Douglas Shea
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name

Charles Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered

rough justice in

Post by Douglas Shea
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of

punishment used by

Post by Douglas Shea
whites against African American slaves. However,

whites who protested

Post by Douglas Shea
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against

those whites who

Post by Douglas Shea
protested against the lynching of african

americans.  

Post by Douglas Shea
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei

Scammer, go ahead

Post by Douglas Shea
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the

past
www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
---
Rollei List
with 'subscribe'
in the subject field OR by logging into
www.freelists.org
with
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging
into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

---
Rollei List
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Ruben]

I am sorry but would it be possible to take this upheated discussion off
this list!

This is not to offend anyone but for quite a while we have had a civil tone
on this list matching the civil and friendly camera Rolleiflex

It would be obvious that those of you that disagree the most are not going
to move your opponants an inch anyway

We do not need political correctness just a civil tone and if anyone is
truly offended lets take that into considderation instead of arguing
historical references.

best to all of you

Ruben

[Ruddy Roye]

Love you Ruben
I like you sweet tone.
I bet you are a planar man--I am joking, just trying to come off this
heated topic
But truthfully I am ok now

Post by Ruben
I am sorry but would it be possible to take this upheated discussion
off this list!
This is not to offend anyone but for quite a while we have had a civil
tone on this list matching the civil and friendly camera Rolleiflex
It would be obvious that those of you that disagree the most are not
going to move your opponants an inch anyway
We do not need political correctness just a civil tone and if anyone
is truly offended lets take that into considderation instead of
arguing historical references.
best to all of you
Ruben
---
Rollei List
the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Jerry Lehrer]

Ruddy,

I HOPE that you are done after that one. You will be for me
as I have placed you on my FILTER list. You have joined the
argumentative Argy, as two of the three on my list.

Bye bye now,
Jerry

Post by Ruddy Roye
I AM DONE AFTER THAT LAST ONE
I THINK I SAID ALL I HAD TO SAY.
I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BUT I HOPE WE SHOOT BETTER THAN WE SPEAK
OUT MINDS.
IN MY LITTLE EXPERIENCE AS A MAN AND PHOTOGRAPHER I HAVE LEARNT THAT
YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO SO......WE SHOOT HOW WE THINK

Post by John Jensen
Boy, the way this discourse is going I don't think I
will ever use B/W film again, particularly high-speed
(greater sensitivity to light).
John
P.S. Perhaps we should end this thread. The last
time was when it was Democrat/Republican,
liberal/conservative and we had several people pick up
their marbles and go elsewhere.

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued
me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind
me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow
member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I
shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might
come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important
to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know
that there are
things that have happened to people that I should
not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being
politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach,
exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all,
photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on
the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach
photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I
photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil
or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the
same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go
away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who
support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat
groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason
believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If
I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers
instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot
about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know.
Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only
good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course
(Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend.
"That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would

turn to for etymology.

Post by Douglas Shea
Doug

Behalf Of

Post by Douglas Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark

Meijer c/o Global

Post by Douglas Shea
RolleiClub and...
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho,

not politically

Post by Douglas Shea
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being

sensitive to others.

Post by Douglas Shea
And regardless of the political leanings of

Lynchburg or the Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it

is clear that the

Post by Douglas Shea
general association of the word lynching is with

african-americans and

Post by Douglas Shea
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and

simple wish to be

Post by Douglas Shea
respected. If you google the word lynching, note

that all of the

Post by Douglas Shea
photos depict african-americans. note the

following google entry

Post by Douglas Shea
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name

Charles Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered

rough justice in

Post by Douglas Shea
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of

punishment used by

Post by Douglas Shea
whites against African American slaves. However,

whites who protested

Post by Douglas Shea
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against

those whites who

Post by Douglas Shea
protested against the lynching of african

americans.

Post by Douglas Shea
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei

Scammer, go ahead

Post by Douglas Shea
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the

past
www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
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[Ruddy Roye]

I feel fortunate actually.
I will just picture you in your hooded sheet every time I see your name
pop up on the post

Post by Jerry Lehrer
Ruddy,
I HOPE that you are done after that one. You will be for me
as I have placed you on my FILTER list. You have joined the
argumentative Argy, as two of the three on my list.
Bye bye now,
Jerry

Post by Ruddy Roye
I AM DONE AFTER THAT LAST ONE
I THINK I SAID ALL I HAD TO SAY.
I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BUT I HOPE WE SHOOT BETTER THAN WE SPEAK
OUT MINDS.
IN MY LITTLE EXPERIENCE AS A MAN AND PHOTOGRAPHER I HAVE LEARNT THAT
YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO SO......WE SHOOT HOW WE THINK

Post by John Jensen
Boy, the way this discourse is going I don't think I
will ever use B/W film again, particularly high-speed
(greater sensitivity to light).
John
P.S. Perhaps we should end this thread. The last
time was when it was Democrat/Republican,
liberal/conservative and we had several people pick up
their marbles and go elsewhere.

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued
me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind
me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow
member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I
shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might
come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important
to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know
that there are
things that have happened to people that I should
not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being
politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach,
exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all,
photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on
the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach
photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I
photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil
or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the
same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go
away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who
support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat
groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason
believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If
I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers
instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot
about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know.
Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only
good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course
(Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend.
"That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would

turn to for etymology.

Post by Douglas Shea
Doug

Behalf Of

Post by Douglas Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark

Meijer c/o Global

Post by Douglas Shea
RolleiClub and...
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho,

not politically

Post by Douglas Shea
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being

sensitive to others.

Post by Douglas Shea
And regardless of the political leanings of

Lynchburg or the Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it

is clear that the

Post by Douglas Shea
general association of the word lynching is with

african-americans and

Post by Douglas Shea
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and

simple wish to be

Post by Douglas Shea
respected. If you google the word lynching, note

that all of the

Post by Douglas Shea
photos depict african-americans. note the

following google entry

Post by Douglas Shea
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name

Charles Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered

rough justice in

Post by Douglas Shea
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of

punishment used by

Post by Douglas Shea
whites against African American slaves. However,

whites who protested

Post by Douglas Shea
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against

those whites who

Post by Douglas Shea
protested against the lynching of african

americans.

Post by Douglas Shea
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei

Scammer, go ahead

Post by Douglas Shea
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the

past
www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
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www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Marc James Small]

Mrf Roye

Your behavior on this list has proved to have been most negative and your
insistent call to combat is really more than a bit outre.

Kindly apologize immediately, on the List, to Jerry Lehrer for your
inexplicable insults to him or I will shortly remove you from the List and
send you to the outer boundaries of darkness.

As I sid before, personal attacks are not allowed.

You are being moderated in the meantime.

Marc James Small
Rollei List Owner



***@aya.yale.edu
Cha robh bàs fir gun ghràs fir!

NEW FAX NUMBER: [phone]

[Peter K.]

*Oh C'mon now. This is getting ridiculous. Now you are labeling something
like a journalist would to try and direct someone's reading down a specific
path. You are not being very fair Ruddy.*

Post by Ruddy Roye
I feel fortunate actually.
I will just picture you in your hooded sheet every time I see your name
pop up on the post

Post by Jerry Lehrer
Ruddy,
I HOPE that you are done after that one. You will be for me
as I have placed you on my FILTER list. You have joined the
argumentative Argy, as two of the three on my list.
Bye bye now,
Jerry

Post by Ruddy Roye
I AM DONE AFTER THAT LAST ONE
I THINK I SAID ALL I HAD TO SAY.
I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BUT I HOPE WE SHOOT BETTER THAN WE SPEAK
OUT MINDS.
IN MY LITTLE EXPERIENCE AS A MAN AND PHOTOGRAPHER I HAVE LEARNT THAT
YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO SO......WE SHOOT HOW WE THINK

Post by John Jensen
Boy, the way this discourse is going I don't think I
will ever use B/W film again, particularly high-speed
(greater sensitivity to light).
John
P.S. Perhaps we should end this thread. The last
time was when it was Democrat/Republican,
liberal/conservative and we had several people pick up
their marbles and go elsewhere.

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued
me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind
me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow
member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I
shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might
come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important
to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know
that there are
things that have happened to people that I should
not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being
politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach,
exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all,
photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on
the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach
photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I
photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil
or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the
same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go
away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who
support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat
groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason
believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If
I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers
instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot
about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know.
Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only
good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course
(Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend.
"That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would

turn to for etymology.

Post by Douglas Shea
Doug

Behalf Of

Post by Douglas Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark

Meijer c/o Global

Post by Douglas Shea
RolleiClub and...
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho,

not politically

Post by Douglas Shea
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being

sensitive to others.

Post by Douglas Shea
And regardless of the political leanings of

Lynchburg or the Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it

is clear that the

Post by Douglas Shea
general association of the word lynching is with

african-americans and

Post by Douglas Shea
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and

simple wish to be

Post by Douglas Shea
respected. If you google the word lynching, note

that all of the

Post by Douglas Shea
photos depict african-americans. note the

following google entry

Post by Douglas Shea
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name

Charles Lynch

Post by Douglas Shea
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered

rough justice in

Post by Douglas Shea
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of

punishment used by

Post by Douglas Shea
whites against African American slaves. However,

whites who protested

Post by Douglas Shea
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against

those whites who

Post by Douglas Shea
protested against the lynching of african

americans.

Post by Douglas Shea
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei

Scammer, go ahead

Post by Douglas Shea
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the

past
www.royephotography.com <http://www.royephotography.com>
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
---
Rollei List
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- Online, searchable archives are available at
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Portrait and Editorial Photographer
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--
Peter K
Ó¿Õ¬

[Carlos Manuel Freaza]

--- Jerry Lehrer <***@pacbell.net> escribió:
You have

Post by Jerry Lehrer
joined the
argumentative Argy, as two of the three on my list.

Thanks Jerry to remember that I am in your list.
Perhaps I'll remember to the list, specially to the
new members, why I am in your list.-
Carlos







___________________________________________________________
1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam
Correo Yahoo!, el mejor correo web del mundo
http://correo.yahoo.com.ar

[Marc James Small]

Post by Ruddy Roye
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot about himself, his
family and his ancestors.

Buddy

We are quite glad to have you here as you represent a viewpoint rarely seen
on this List. Many of the regular posters here are, well, politically
incorrect, and the List Owner is an inconsiderate, insensitive, impolite
curmudgeon whose antics would have embarrassed Dr Johnson most severely.
But we enjoy the conversation and we all try to have decent communication
over absurdly off-topic issues of great delicacy such as the meaning of the
term "lynching". We do attempt to avoid personal invective and assailings
while we work through our dfferences, but that is about as far as politness
runs in these hustings, I fear.

Please continue to be outspoken, as you are a freshening wind to our number
and your approach is thus most deeply appreciated.

Note that the List had been rather silent of late and so this discussion
has at least roused the sleepier of our flock to make comment.

Marc

***@aya.yale.edu
Cha robh bàs fir gun ghràs fir!

NEW FAX NUMBER: [phone]

[Bob Shell]

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this chat
group are respected.

I don't have a problem with black people. Nor with Asian people. Nor
with any other kind of people. None of us would ever have known you
were black if you hadn't told us. For all I know, many other list
members may be black, but it has never come up because it is not
relevant to our discussions. This is a photography list.

I do have a problem with a new member of a list jumping on those of us
who have been here for years and know each other, and telling us how to
behave. We've gotten along just fine for a lot of years without the
need for a monitor of political correctness. This list has always
maintained freedom of speech, and the only thing really off limits is
personal attacks. Anyone who is offended by our discussions or
language can find instructions on how to unsubscribe at the bottom of
each list message.

Now let's get back to discussing photography and Rollei.

Bob

[Ruddy Roye]

BOB
I am soooo use to hearing your words.
Its nothing new. You might as well blurt out the N word because I know
it is boiling all over your lips.
"If I do not like the way America treats me go home to Jamaica."
If I do not like the words on the chat room unsubscribe."
I thought we all come together to share and make each one a better
photog and inevitably a better man. I thought this was about Brother
and sisterhood. But despite my stupid idealistic expectations you are
saying you prefer to go ahead with your tessar lens instead of
listening to a black man tell you your picture is not sharp enough to
be viewed in a gallery.
But having or not having a problem with black folk does not mean that
you want to hear from them, or even worse, have them tell you how you
should behave or speak.
Yes I can go back into the hole I crawled out of. And yes I can sit
here and read "oh gosh I use the s word, all day long and to tell you
the truth, it says more about you than it does about me.

Nuff sed

Post by Bob Shell

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this
chat group are respected.

I don't have a problem with black people. Nor with Asian people. Nor
with any other kind of people. None of us would ever have known you
were black if you hadn't told us. For all I know, many other list
members may be black, but it has never come up because it is not
relevant to our discussions. This is a photography list.
I do have a problem with a new member of a list jumping on those of us
who have been here for years and know each other, and telling us how
to behave. We've gotten along just fine for a lot of years without
the need for a monitor of political correctness. This list has always
maintained freedom of speech, and the only thing really off limits is
personal attacks. Anyone who is offended by our discussions or
language can find instructions on how to unsubscribe at the bottom of
each list message.
Now let's get back to discussing photography and Rollei.
Bob
---
Rollei List
the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Mike Ross]

Duly noted. After this thread... <plonk> to the lot of ya.

Mike
http://www.corestore.org

Anyone who is offended by our discussions or language can find instructions
on how to unsubscribe at the bottom of each list message.

[Don Williams]

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
Doug

I don't understand that statement.

As far as I can tell, Google doesn't supply any factual information,
it just helps one to find sources which contain information, be it
correct or incorrect.

Don't evaluate Google for the accuracy of the information sources it
points to. Google was one of the first search engines which ranked
websites by the number of outside references to them. I think it
still works that way, so one might conclude that although is isn't a
source of information, it's a pretty good index to sources of information.



Don Williams
La Jolla, CA

[R***@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/18/05 4:30:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
Doug

sorry that google's definition and postings are not accurate, or should i
say, politically correct enough for your liking. the whole point is that you are
communicating with others here, and it is POLITE, not politically correct or
whatever excuse you proffer, to respect others and what is common public
acceptance and use of this word regardless of your personal recognition of the
information source, yea though last time i checked Google is quite well accepted
by the public and its stockholders.

Bob Laubach
Manassas VA

[Douglas Shea]

Bob,

So I'm supposed to 'dummy down' so as not offend you and perhaps a few
others? No thank you. You reference Google; I have recently checked
Webster's New American Dictionary, Random House Collegiate Dictionary, and
Webster's New World Collegiate Dictionary. None of the three references that
I checked mention anything at all regarding lynching and Black-Americans.
Stick with Google for your references if you wish - I'll stay with the
dictionary definitions. I know my intent when I wrote my statement; if you
correlate it with anything racist the problem is yours, not mine.



Doug







_____

From: rollei_list-***@freelists.org
[mailto:rollei_list-***@freelists.org] On Behalf Of ***@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:51 PM
To: ***@freelists.org
Subject: [SPAM][rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...



In a message dated 10/18/05 4:30:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
***@sunvalley.net writes:






Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.

Doug





sorry that google's definition and postings are not accurate, or should i
say, politically correct enough for your liking. the whole point is that
you are communicating with others here, and it is POLITE, not politically
correct or whatever excuse you proffer, to respect others and what is common
public acceptance and use of this word regardless of your personal
recognition of the information source, yea though last time i checked Google
is quite well accepted by the public and its stockholders.

Bob Laubach
Manassas VA

[Douglas Shea]

And you presume to know the color of my skin? You presume to know my
feelings towards race and inequality? Banishing the Rebel flag, the
Swastika, relegating otherwise descriptive words to obscurity because of
some vaguely perceived racial bias does no service whatsoever to further any
cause for justice, and does absolutely nothing to change history. I know
very well what my feelings are towards people of every race and throughout
my entire life I have had great sensitivity towards all suffering; people
that know me well would be laughing hysterically at the assertions you have
made (as my wife is at this very moment).

Respectfully,
Doug



-----Original Message-----
From: rollei_list-***@freelists.org
[mailto:rollei_list-***@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Ruddy Roye
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:54 PM
To: ***@freelists.org
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...Insensitive reactions

Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know that there are
things that have happened to people that I should not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach, exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all, photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know. Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course (Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend. "That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
 
Doug
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others.
 And regardless of the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it is clear that the
general association of the word lynching is with african-americans and
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and simple wish to be
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note that all of the
photos depict african-americans.  note the following google entry
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by
whites against African American slaves. However, whites who protested
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who
protested against the lynching of african americans.  
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the past

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

---
Rollei List

- Post to ***@freelists.org

- Subscribe at rollei_list-***@freelists.org with 'subscribe'
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org

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'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org

- Online, searchable archives are available at
http://www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list

[Ruddy Roye]

Oh so black people are not racist?
Please.
Black people built this world, racism is on top of their list of
feelings they are entitled to have.
And yes we do need to change the symbols once used to suppress people
around the world because if nothing else it gives credence to the lives
of those who fought to change it for us living. Tho you may not see
the changes (as evolution is not bounded by the rules of "DOUG's" time)
please do not sully the struggle of so many people who have died for
these "vaguely perceived racial bias"
It is not to "relegate otherwise descriptive words to obscurity," but
it is the same reason why we buy new rollei's with the new and improve
lenses. The new lenses render the old ones obsolete. You Doug as an
"experienced photographer" might enjoy looking at some 30x40 image that
has been put through six hundred episode of unsharp mask to sharpen it
- only to find that it is still plagued with the same flaws indicative
of its period...a blurry unsharp picture. And Doug, I am not suffering
because of racism. I am trying to make sure that this seven month old
son that I am smiling at as we type back and forth to each other does
not have to deal with the stuff you are trying to pass off as ? This
is why we change the symbols.
And while you feel comfortable laughing with your wife about how some
misguided black man over in New York is over sensitive, I still say
that if I had used the term gas chamber, suicide bombing, plane crash
in world trade centre or any other unkind way of joining your statement
with, "to bring out the mob," someone would have had me kicked off
this chat room by now.
My wife, a 9 year sociologist out of Stanford figure your laughing
because you think you are right, a man incapable of being told that his
way of thinking is an old tessar lens, ( can do the job, but not sharp
enough.) We on the other hand see this misunderstanding differently.
Not good, not bad, no judgement at all, just differently.

Ruddy

Post by Douglas Shea
And you presume to know the color of my skin? You presume to know my
feelings towards race and inequality? Banishing the Rebel flag, the
Swastika, relegating otherwise descriptive words to obscurity because of
some vaguely perceived racial bias does no service whatsoever to further any
cause for justice, and does absolutely nothing to change history. I know
very well what my feelings are towards people of every race and throughout
my entire life I have had great sensitivity towards all suffering; people
that know me well would be laughing hysterically at the assertions you have
made (as my wife is at this very moment).
Respectfully,
Doug
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:54 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...Insensitive reactions
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know that there are
things that have happened to people that I should not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach, exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all, photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know. Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course (Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend. "That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
 
Doug
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others.
 And regardless of the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it is clear that the
general association of the word lynching is with african-americans and
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and simple wish to be
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note that all of the
photos depict african-americans.  note the following google entry
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by
whites against African American slaves. However, whites who protested
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who
protested against the lynching of african americans.  
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the past

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[Eric Goldstein]

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job, but not sharp
enough.)

You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are incredibly sharp...


Eric Goldstein

[Ruddy Roye]

Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar just came to mind(LOL)

Ruddy

Post by Eric Goldstein

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job, but not sharp enough.)

You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are incredibly sharp...
Eric Goldstein
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[John Jensen]

Oh, boy. Them's fighting words around here (poorest
lens/Tessar). :-)

John

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar
just came to mind(LOL)
Ruddy

Post by Eric Goldstein

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job,

but not sharp enough.)

Post by Eric Goldstein
You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are

incredibly sharp...

Post by Eric Goldstein
Eric Goldstein
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[Ruddy Roye]

I am still Laughing
I am so accustom to planar as the flagship that I might have offended
some tessar users(smile, smile, smile)

Post by John Jensen
Oh, boy. Them's fighting words around here (poorest
lens/Tessar). :-)
John

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar
just came to mind(LOL)
Ruddy

Post by Eric Goldstein

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job,

but not sharp enough.)

Post by Eric Goldstein
You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are

incredibly sharp...

Post by Eric Goldstein
Eric Goldstein
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[John Jensen]

And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)

John

Post by Ruddy Roye
I am still Laughing
I am so accustom to planar as the flagship that I
might have offended
some tessar users(smile, smile, smile)

Post by John Jensen
Oh, boy. Them's fighting words around here

(poorest

Post by John Jensen
lens/Tessar). :-)
John

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar
just came to mind(LOL)
Ruddy
On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Eric Goldstein

Post by Eric Goldstein

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job,

but not sharp enough.)

Post by Eric Goldstein
You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are

incredibly sharp...

Post by Eric Goldstein
Eric Goldstein
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[Ruddy Roye]

Truthfully though, which is the sharper lens
I did a test with my GX, 3.5F and the Wide and their is a stiff fight
between 3.5F and the rollei wide. there was little difference between
the GX and the 3.5F but it was hard to say which of the three was
sharpest.

Post by John Jensen
And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)
John

Post by Ruddy Roye
I am still Laughing
I am so accustom to planar as the flagship that I
might have offended
some tessar users(smile, smile, smile)

Post by John Jensen
Oh, boy. Them's fighting words around here

(poorest

Post by John Jensen
lens/Tessar). :-)
John

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar
just came to mind(LOL)
Ruddy
On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Eric Goldstein

Post by Eric Goldstein

(snipped) an old tessar lens, ( can do the job,

but not sharp enough.)

Post by Eric Goldstein
You got a bad old Tessar. Some of them are

incredibly sharp...

Post by Eric Goldstein
Eric Goldstein
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[Carlos Manuel Freaza]

Post by Ruddy Roye
Truthfully though, which is the sharper lens
I did a test with my GX, 3.5F and the Wide and their
is a stiff fight
between 3.5F and the rollei wide. there was little
difference between
the GX and the 3.5F but it was hard to say which of
the three was
sharpest.

I commented a similar experience regarding others
older Rolleiflexes and lenses models this morning;
considering cameras and lenses in good condition, it
is very hard to say which of the lenses is the
sharpest.-

All the best
Carlos






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[Richard Knoppow]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruddy Roye" <***@mac.com>
To: <***@freelists.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Sharpness and Old TEssars --not
lynching or the Doc

Post by Ruddy Roye
Truthfully though, which is the sharper lens
I did a test with my GX, 3.5F and the Wide and their is a
stiff fight between 3.5F and the rollei wide. there was
little difference between the GX and the 3.5F but it was
hard to say which of the three was sharpest.

Post by John Jensen
And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)
John

Its pretty hard to make definitive judgements of lenses
on cameras because one is testing the entire system,
including film.
Tessars, as a generic type, are capable of excellent
performance but, of course there are better and worse
designed lenses. An example of a very well designed Tessar
type is the series of f/6.8 Commercial Ektar lenses. The
f/4.5 Ektars made for press and medium format cameras is
nearly as good. Zeiss Tessars from the 1930s and '40s are
very good lenses but not quite up to the Kodak lenses,
perhaps because of the glass available at the time. From the
information in the Zeiss Index its evident that Zeiss
experimented with the design almost continuously.
Tessars have some inherent problems that can be minimised
by not overcome by careful design. They are also
asymmetrical so that correction of coma, lateral color, and
geometric distortion is more difficult than in symmetrical
types. Tessars are best for medium coverage and moderate
speed lenses. Where speeds greater than about f/3.5 or
coverage greater than about 60 degrees is needed other
designs are better. Tessars have been designed with speeds
up to f/2.8 but these are pushing the limit and are, in
general, not satisfactory in focal lengths greater than
about 50mm. Tessars of around f/8, such as the Zeiss Apo
Tessar and the current line of Fuji Tessars, can be
excellent.
No generic design is "best", all have some inherent
limitations that are difficult to overcome. For instance,
the Plasmat type, which is probably the most widely used
generic type for large format camera lenses and for
enlarging lenses of all focal lengths, is inherently low in
astigmatism and can have a very flat field, but it tends to
have more spherical aberration than some other types. The
Planar/Opic/Biotar lens, on which is based most f/2 or
faster lenses for 35mm cameras and f/2.8 lenses for MF
cameras, is capable of excellent spherical correction but is
limited in its coverage angle. So, you pays your money and
takes your choice. The Tessar is a lens capable of high
quality performance but is not particularly difficult or
expensive to make. It is probably the most used design of
all.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[Richard Knoppow]

Post by Richard Knoppow
Tessar and the current line of Fuji Tessars, can be

^^^^

I meant Nikon.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[Eric Goldstein]

Tessars, as a generic type, are capable of excellent performance but,
of course there are better and worse designed lenses. An example of a
very well designed Tessar type is the series of f/6.8 Commercial Ektar
lenses. The f/4.5 Ektars made for press and medium format cameras is
nearly as good. Zeiss Tessars from the 1930s and '40s are very good
lenses but not quite up to the Kodak lenses, perhaps because of the
glass available at the time.

I'd bet you a nickel that it is more a function of speed. As I
mentioned, this is a medium speed design, which is probably why modern
shooters eschew it. The large format Nikkor f/9 series is an excellent
tessar type, and as you say so was the Commercial Ektar f/6.8 series. It
stands to reason that the MF f/4.5 Ektars should outperform the f/3.5
Zeisses (all things being equal) as they are more within the optimal
design paramaters of the basic lens type. Greenleaf puts the optimal
design speed of a tessar-type of 100 mm FL at f/6.3.


Eric Goldstein

[Richard Knoppow]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Goldstein" <***@gmail.com>
To: <***@freelists.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:59 AM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: Sharpness and Old Tessars --not
lynching or the Doc

Post by Eric Goldstein

Post by Richard Knoppow
Tessars, as a generic type, are capable of excellent
performance but, of course there are better and worse
designed lenses. An example of a very well designed
Tessar type is the series of f/6.8 Commercial Ektar
lenses. The f/4.5 Ektars made for press and medium
format cameras is nearly as good. Zeiss Tessars from the
1930s and '40s are very good lenses but not quite up to
the Kodak lenses, perhaps because of the glass available
at the time.

I'd bet you a nickel that it is more a function of speed.
As I mentioned, this is a medium speed design, which is
probably why modern shooters eschew it. The large format
Nikkor f/9 series is an excellent tessar type, and as you
say so was the Commercial Ektar f/6.8 series. It stands to
reason that the MF f/4.5 Ektars should outperform the
f/3.5 Zeisses (all things being equal) as they are more
within the optimal design paramaters of the basic lens
type. Greenleaf puts the optimal design speed of a
tessar-type of 100 mm FL at f/6.3.
Eric Goldstein
---

It is partly a matter of speed. For equally well
designed lenses the slower ones will perform better than the
faster ones because the angle of the rim rays is less.
However, even when comparing lenses of he same speed there
can be a variation in performance due to something in the
design. For instance, f/4.5 Kodak Ektar, about a 1940
design, have less spherical aberration wide open than the
Zeiss Tessars of the same period. A much later design (about
1946), the Wollensak Raptar, also sold as the Graflex Optar,
has a design error of some sort. These f/4.5 lenses seem to
have excessive coma, or perhaps its oblique spherical, which
is consistent with all focal lengths. These lenses have a
little smearing at the corners even at f/22 where the Kodak
and Zeiss lenses are free of it by f/8. I will have to look
at Greenleaf again but I think what he says is that f/6.3
Tessars are better than f/4.5 rather than it being an
optimum speed. At f/8 the lens is even better which is why
Zeiss Tessar type process lenses are around this speed and
why the Nikkor lens is so good.
BTW, it sure would be intresting to know what Greenleaf
really thought about various manufacturers, he hints in this
book and in a couple of articles he wrote that most QC was
pretty awful. I don't think the Goerz Dogmar on the dust
jacket is a coincidence, reading between the lines I think
he had a high opinion of Goerz.
I typed f/6.8 in error for the Commercial Ektar, they
are f/6.3. Zeiss and B&L also made a series of Tessars of
this speed. I've never had one to inspect but the published
specs indicate it has a slightly wider coverage than the
faster versions.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[Eric Goldstein]

Post by Eric Goldstein

Tessars, as a generic type, are capable of excellent performance
but, of course there are better and worse designed lenses. An example
of a very well designed Tessar type is the series of f/6.8 Commercial
Ektar lenses. The f/4.5 Ektars made for press and medium format
cameras is nearly as good. Zeiss Tessars from the 1930s and '40s are
very good lenses but not quite up to the Kodak lenses, perhaps
because of the glass available at the time.

I'd bet you a nickel that it is more a function of speed. As I
mentioned, this is a medium speed design, which is probably why modern
shooters eschew it. The large format Nikkor f/9 series is an excellent
tessar type, and as you say so was the Commercial Ektar f/6.8 series.
It stands to reason that the MF f/4.5 Ektars should outperform the
f/3.5 Zeisses (all things being equal) as they are more within the
optimal design paramaters of the basic lens type. Greenleaf puts the
optimal design speed of a tessar-type of 100 mm FL at f/6.3.

It is partly a matter of speed. For equally well designed lenses the
slower ones will perform better than the faster ones because the angle
of the rim rays is less. However, even when comparing lenses of he same
speed there can be a variation in performance due to something in the
design. For instance, f/4.5 Kodak Ektar, about a 1940 design, have less
spherical aberration wide open than the Zeiss Tessars of the same
period. A much later design (about 1946), the Wollensak Raptar, also
sold as the Graflex Optar, has a design error of some sort. These f/4.5
lenses seem to have excessive coma, or perhaps its oblique spherical,
which is consistent with all focal lengths. These lenses have a little
smearing at the corners even at f/22 where the Kodak and Zeiss lenses
are free of it by f/8. I will have to look at Greenleaf again but I
think what he says is that f/6.3 Tessars are better than f/4.5 rather
than it being an optimum speed. At f/8 the lens is even better which is
why Zeiss Tessar type process lenses are around this speed and why the
Nikkor lens is so good.
BTW, it sure would be intresting to know what Greenleaf really
thought about various manufacturers, he hints in this book and in a
couple of articles he wrote that most QC was pretty awful. I don't think
the Goerz Dogmar on the dust jacket is a coincidence, reading between
the lines I think he had a high opinion of Goerz.
I typed f/6.8 in error for the Commercial Ektar, they are f/6.3.
Zeiss and B&L also made a series of Tessars of this speed. I've never
had one to inspect but the published specs indicate it has a slightly
wider coverage than the faster versions.

Ok, we need to stay on point here. Your statement was that you thought
the difference between the two Tessar designs was perhaps a function of
glass type. My point is that it is much more likely a function of lens
speed; a point which I think is difficult to dispute with a Tessar-type
(where high performance glass is not of major consequence).

You go on to argue that design and execution are important, and of
course they are. We know that many of the Raptar/Optars of the period
were really not good lenses. But that is is given in any discussion of
lens type; unless you remove that variable from the discussion, you get
know-where. Both Kodak and Zeiss were known for trying to produce
well-designed/evecited lenses at the time and for better-than-average QC...

I agree that Greenleaf did not think highly of the execution of most
lenses of the period. That Goerz Dogmar he has on the cover is supposed
to be a really fine lens, and you don't see them often on that auction
sight... shooters hold on to them...


Eric Goldstein

[Richard Knoppow]

Lots-O-Snipping........

My comparison was among three lenses of the same speed
and focal length, namely the Kodak Ektar, f/4.5, Zeiss
Tessar, f/4.5, Wollensak Raptar f/4.5. All of these were
used on Speed Graphics at one time or another. I have a
couple of each. The best performer is the Ektar. It has
minimum residual spherical and generally is the sharpest.
These Ektars vary in age from 1941 to 1952. The next is the
Zeiss Tessar. Mine were made in the late 1930's. The Raptars
were probably made in the late 1940s, I have no Wollensak
serial number info. The Tessars must be stopped down a
little to be sharp in the center and have enough focus shift
to be a factor in setting up a rangefinder. The Ektars, with
one exception, have virtually none. The exception is a very
early (1941) 101mm lens but I also have a 127mm Ektar of the
same date which has no focus shift.
The Raptars (135mm and 101mm) are sharp in the center and
seem to be well corrected for spherical aberration but have
something else wrong with them. This looks like coma but may
be something that mimics it. The effect is to smear out the
margins of the image. Even at f/32 there is just a little of
whatever this is left. I have checked several Raptars and
they all have this problem which leads me to think its a
design blunder rather than manufacturing error. The
Enlarging Raptar of the same vintage also seems to have
problems. Since the Optar is the same lens with the Graflex
house name on it they are the same. I don't know how such a
poor design could have escaped notice. Graflex changed
vendors for the Optar to Rodenstock after a few years.
Not all Wollensak lenses are poor. The Tele-Raptar also
sold as the Tele-Optar is a very good lens and evidently
many of their pre-war lenses were good.
The biggest difference between the f/4.5 and f/6.3 Tessar
seems to be coverage which is a little larger for the slower
lens.
In general slower lenses are easier to correct than faster
ones simply because the steepness of the rays inside the
lens and amount of surface curvature are less. High index
glass helps because it reduces the amount of surface
curvature needed for a given power. In the past the
dispersion of high index glass was too high making chromatic
correction difficult or impossible but modern glass,
beginning with the rare earth glasses, offer high index
glass with much lower dispersion than the older types. I
don't think any rare earth glass was used in the Ektar
series based on the Tessar (there were lots of other generic
designs sold under the name) but Kodak certainly had it
available.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[Jerry Lehrer]

Richard,

Kodak also made a few Ektars and Kodak Anastigmats in the
aperture of f7.7 in a few focal lengths. I use one of them in a
Nikon bellows for a few applications. It is amazing for such an
ancient lens! It is 6" FL

Do you have any knowledge of this series of lenses?

Jerry

Post by Richard Knoppow
Lots-O-Snipping........
My comparison was among three lenses of the same speed
and focal length, namely the Kodak Ektar, f/4.5, Zeiss
Tessar, f/4.5, Wollensak Raptar f/4.5. All of these were
used on Speed Graphics at one time or another. I have a
couple of each. The best performer is the Ektar. It has
minimum residual spherical and generally is the sharpest.
These Ektars vary in age from 1941 to 1952. The next is the
Zeiss Tessar. Mine were made in the late 1930's. The Raptars
were probably made in the late 1940s, I have no Wollensak
serial number info. The Tessars must be stopped down a
little to be sharp in the center and have enough focus shift
to be a factor in setting up a rangefinder. The Ektars, with
one exception, have virtually none. The exception is a very
early (1941) 101mm lens but I also have a 127mm Ektar of the
same date which has no focus shift.
The Raptars (135mm and 101mm) are sharp in the center and
seem to be well corrected for spherical aberration but have
something else wrong with them. This looks like coma but may
be something that mimics it. The effect is to smear out the
margins of the image. Even at f/32 there is just a little of
whatever this is left. I have checked several Raptars and
they all have this problem which leads me to think its a
design blunder rather than manufacturing error. The
Enlarging Raptar of the same vintage also seems to have
problems. Since the Optar is the same lens with the Graflex
house name on it they are the same. I don't know how such a
poor design could have escaped notice. Graflex changed
vendors for the Optar to Rodenstock after a few years.
Not all Wollensak lenses are poor. The Tele-Raptar also
sold as the Tele-Optar is a very good lens and evidently
many of their pre-war lenses were good.
The biggest difference between the f/4.5 and f/6.3 Tessar
seems to be coverage which is a little larger for the slower
lens.
In general slower lenses are easier to correct than faster
ones simply because the steepness of the rays inside the
lens and amount of surface curvature are less. High index
glass helps because it reduces the amount of surface
curvature needed for a given power. In the past the
dispersion of high index glass was too high making chromatic
correction difficult or impossible but modern glass,
beginning with the rare earth glasses, offer high index
glass with much lower dispersion than the older types. I
don't think any rare earth glass was used in the Ektar
series based on the Tessar (there were lots of other generic
designs sold under the name) but Kodak certainly had it
available.
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
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[Richard Knoppow]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Lehrer" <***@pacbell.net>
To: <***@freelists.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: Sharpness and Old Tessars --not
lynching or the Doc

Post by Jerry Lehrer
Richard,
Kodak also made a few Ektars and Kodak Anastigmats in the
aperture of f7.7 in a few focal lengths. I use one of
them in a
Nikon bellows for a few applications. It is amazing for
such an
ancient lens! It is 6" FL
Do you have any knowledge of this series of lenses?
Jerry

The well f/7.7, 203mm Kodak Anastigmat is a Dialyte type,
that is, four element air spaced, with some power shifted
from front to rear cell to optimize it for distant objects.
The Kodak Ektar of the same FL and aperture is, as far as I
can find out, identical except that its coated. This lens
was sold as the No.70 K.A. and was the last of the 70
series.
For many years Kodak made two series of Kodak Anastigmat
lenses, the 70 series, mostly f/4.5 dialytes, and the 30
Series, which were f/4.5 Tessars. The 203mm No.70 K.A. was
for a long time the only one made in the f/7.7 aperture but
earlier they were made in a range of focal lengths mostly
for medium priced folding cameras. The 203mm Ektar version
was sold as an economy lens for 4x5 and 5x7 (which is just
barely covers) view cameras where the cost of an Ektar or
Commercial Ektar could not be justified.
The design is similar to the Goerz Dogmar. The Dogmar
was derived from the earlier Celor which is symmetrical. The
general type was derived by Emile von Hoegh from his Dagor
by replacing the center element with an "air lens". Kodak
has many patents covering the general type, they seemed to
be interested in improving it over the years.
The Dogmar type lens has excellent color correction but
is somewhat limited in its coverage and the coverage does
not increase when its stopped down. These lenses were
popular on Graflex and one-shot color cameras where the
limited coverage was not important. Its only other fault is
flare from the 8 glass-air surfaces when uncoated. I have a
203mm K.A. which is exctremely sharp and seems to be pretty
contrasty despite the lack of coating.
Kodak changed the names of many of their lenses in 1946.
The name Kodak Anastigmat was eliminated and replaced by
names like Anaston, Ansastar, etc. The 70 Series lenses seem
to have been completely discontinued at that time.
From the information in LensVIEW most of the K.A. lenses
were of very good or excellent quality although not quite up
to the Ektar.

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
***@ix.netcom.com

[h***@verizon.net]

Post by John Jensen
And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)

Heh, heh, heh [evil grin].

[Jan de Ridder]

Post by h***@verizon.net

Post by John Jensen
And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)

Heh, heh, heh [evil grin].

Isn't one supposed to be better than the other ?

......... (gone to bed)

[h***@verizon.net]

Post by Jan de Ridder

Post by h***@verizon.net

Post by John Jensen
And don't even think about discussing Planar vs.
Xenotar or Xenotar vs. Planar! Again ;-)

Heh, heh, heh [evil grin].

Isn't one supposed to be better than the other ?
......... (gone to bed)

That goes without saying [evil grin].

[Eric Goldstein]

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar just came to mind(LOL)

now THEM'S fightin' words... ;-)

I got a prewar tessar on a '39 'flex that enlarges like crazy...


Eric "Eagle Eye" Goldstein

[Ruddy Roye]

Any pics
would love to be a believer
Why do I hear so many photogs run away from tessar lens

Post by Eric Goldstein

Post by Ruddy Roye
Smile--fair enough
I was looking for the poorest lens to use, tessar just came to mind(LOL)

now THEM'S fightin' words... ;-)
I got a prewar tessar on a '39 'flex that enlarges like crazy...
Eric "Eagle Eye" Goldstein
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www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Eric Goldstein]

Post by Ruddy Roye
Why do I hear so many photogs run away from tessar lens

Umm, ignorance? Stupidity? The desire to have large pieces of glass to
compensate for their small... brains? ;-)

I really can't say I've run into all that much prejudice against
Tessars. The large format f/9 Nikkors are Tessar-types and they have a
killer rep. In terms of pix, just about everything shot on Speed
Graphics over the years have been shot with Tessar-type lenses.

Generally, modern photographers look for lens speed more than anything
else, and that may have a great deal to do with such an ill-informed
prejudice. At f/8, you would be hard pressed to see the difference
between a good MF Tessar and just about any other MF lens...



Eric Goldstein

[Frederic Fichter]

http://www.rollei-gallery.net/e-bigler/image-60019.html

Post by Ruddy Roye
Any pics
would love to be a believer

[Ruddy Roye]

You are playing right?

Post by Frederic Fichter
http://www.rollei-gallery.net/e-bigler/image-60019.html

Post by Ruddy Roye
Any pics
would love to be a believer

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Frederic Fichter]

Not at all. I've met the shooter and the camera. I've seen the
picture exhibited.
Then I made the decision to sell my 2.8F and keep the T.

Fred

Post by Ruddy Roye
You are playing right?

Post by Frederic Fichter
http://www.rollei-gallery.net/e-bigler/image-60019.html

Post by Ruddy Roye
Any pics
would love to be a believer

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
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Fred Fichter
Web : http://homepage.mac.com/ffichter

[Ruddy Roye]

Its funny how many friends of mine ask me how I shoot with rollei. "It
seem so cumbersome" they claim.
When I made the switch from Mamiya system to Rollei I did because I
enjoy seeing my work in square. Learning the equipment was something I
felt would enable me to work efficiently when I went on location.
Is there a huge difference in make-up between the two cameras, I mean
Tessar vs everyone else.

Not at all. I've met the shooter and the camera. I've seen the picture
exhibited.
Then I made the decision to sell my 2.8F and keep the T.
Fred

Post by Ruddy Roye
You are playing right?

Post by Frederic Fichter
http://www.rollei-gallery.net/e-bigler/image-60019.html

Post by Ruddy Roye
Any pics
would love to be a believer

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer
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Fred Fichter
Web : http://homepage.mac.com/ffichter

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[R***@aol.com]

Doug -
Please do not twist my words - I did not and do not accuse you of anything
racist. Totally insensitive to the person who very politely and simply objected
to your language, YES! All i wrote about was being sensitive to others
writing and reading here. Enjoy your dictionary readings of choice.

Bob Laubach
Manassas, VA

[R***@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/18/05 5:29:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Post by Bob Shell
This list has always
maintained freedom of speech, and the only thing really off limits is
personal attacks. Anyone who is offended by our discussions or
language can find instructions on how to unsubscribe at the bottom of
each list message.
Now let's get back to discussing photography and Rollei.

Bob,
I would hope that the message from longstanding members to newer contributors
would be welcoming and open, not telling them "here's the door" and that if
you're not gonna do as the good old boys do you can leave. Freedom of speech
is for everyone, not just the longstanding members. If that's what you want,
post a warning for new members that they shouldnt offend you, or just close the
list and limit it to those of you who know each other so well. An internet
list should be open to all, welcome all, and be sensitive to all, not
judgmentall. I hope this is the real message of this group, not just "if you dont like
it, leave"
Bob Laubach
Manassas, VA

[T***@aol.com]

I've been watching this thread with enomous dismay. The language is what it
is. History is what it is. Individuals have been deplorably offended,
abused, persecuted, supressed, murdered and insulted by others throughout history.
This has been variously on grounds of tribal affiliation, political
orientation, religious connection, and yes, skin color.

We all know this, and so far as I can tell, we all deplore it.

Now, could we knock off the crap and stop trying to retouch history with the
PC airbrush?

GK

[Sander B Friedman]

Re: the attached (and others!)

Enough already ... this is a Rollei List ... not a soapbox. I am quite
sure that NO feelings were meant to be hurt, and none should be.

Ganz ganuch

S. B. Friedman
Ö¿Ö¬
n
------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:18:40 EDT ***@aol.com writes:
Doug -
Please do not twist my words - I did not and do not accuse you of
anything racist. Totally insensitive to the person who very politely and
simply objected to your language, YES! All i wrote about was being
sensitive to others writing and reading here. Enjoy your dictionary
readings of choice.

Bob Laubach
Manassas, VA

[Ruddy Roye]

I agree with you
but back in the day, when the N word was acceptable, it was not used
to hurt anyone's feeling either.

Post by Sander B Friedman
Re: the attached (and others!)
 
Enough already ... this is a Rollei List ... not a soapbox.  I am
quite sure that NO feelings were meant to be hurt, and none should be.
 
Ganz ganuch
 
S. B. Friedman
       Ö¿Ö¬
         n
------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Post by R***@aol.com
Doug -
Please do not twist my words - I did not and do not accuse you of
anything racist.  Totally insensitive to the person who very politely
and simply objected to your language, YES!   All i wrote about was
being sensitive to others writing and reading here.  Enjoy your
dictionary readings of choice.
Bob Laubach
Manassas, VA
 

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Sander B Friedman]

Hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S. B. Friedman
ֿ֬
n
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

Post by Ruddy Roye

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that

fact, I

Post by Ruddy Roye
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this

chat

Post by Ruddy Roye
group are respected.

I don't have a problem with black people. Nor with Asian people.
Nor
with any other kind of people. None of us would ever have known you
were black if you hadn't told us. For all I know, many other list
members may be black, but it has never come up because it is not
relevant to our discussions. This is a photography list.
I do have a problem with a new member of a list jumping on those of
us
who have been here for years and know each other, and telling us how
to
behave. We've gotten along just fine for a lot of years without the
need for a monitor of political correctness. This list has always
maintained freedom of speech, and the only thing really off limits
is
personal attacks. Anyone who is offended by our discussions or
language can find instructions on how to unsubscribe at the bottom
of
each list message.
Now let's get back to discussing photography and Rollei.
Bob
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[Ruddy Roye]

Sander I hope you are saying hear hear to the fact that we're all done
and not to the piece of bigotry that was penned below:-)

By the way can we know each other through our pictures. Can we ever
put on a show that was done with only Rollei cameras...

Post by Sander B Friedman
Hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
S. B. Friedman
ֿ֬
n
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------

Post by Ruddy Roye

Post by Ruddy Roye
Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that

fact, I

Post by Ruddy Roye
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this

chat

Post by Ruddy Roye
group are respected.

I don't have a problem with black people. Nor with Asian people.
Nor
with any other kind of people. None of us would ever have known you
were black if you hadn't told us. For all I know, many other list
members may be black, but it has never come up because it is not
relevant to our discussions. This is a photography list.
I do have a problem with a new member of a list jumping on those of
us
who have been here for years and know each other, and telling us how
to
behave. We've gotten along just fine for a lot of years without the
need for a monitor of political correctness. This list has always
maintained freedom of speech, and the only thing really off limits
is
personal attacks. Anyone who is offended by our discussions or
language can find instructions on how to unsubscribe at the bottom
of
each list message.
Now let's get back to discussing photography and Rollei.
Bob
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www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

[Bob Shell]

Post by Ruddy Roye
Sander I hope you are saying hear hear to the fact that we're all done
and not to the piece of bigotry that was penned below:-)

You sir are being offensive! Your post crosses the line. As I said,
personal attacks are not permitted, and you have called me a bigot.
Anyone who knows me knows how ridiculous that statement is. But you
don't know me, and know nothing of my long history of defending the
rights of people. When I was Editor at Shutterbug magazine I sought
out female writers. I sought out black writers. I opened our doors to
a major photographer who had come out of the closet and announced that
he was gay when other magazines would no longer print his writings.

I said we don't need someone new coming on this list telling us what
words we can and can't use, and I stand by that. I outgrew hall
monitors and bullies with chips on their shoulders when I left high
school. New members should join in discussions if they have cogent
comments to make about photography, Rollei, etc., but they should
refrain from lecturing the list about other things until they have been
here a while and know who we all are.

Bob

[redleica]

Hello Rudy,
You mentioned that you were on the D.C march.
At one moment I saw that the crowd turned savage, do you have pictures of that moment?


-----Original Message-----
From: Ruddy Roye <***@mac.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:53:45
To:***@freelists.org
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global RolleiClub and...Insensitive reactions

Maan as my blood boiled, this email came and rescued me.
I am black, and tho I do not need anyone to remind me of that fact, I
do expect if nothing else, my feelings as a fellow member of this chat
group are respected.
As a photog I do not expect everyone to get what I shoot. I can be
political in my ideologies and yet someone might come behind me and go
hmmm bah humbug. Its cool because what is important to you might not
be important to me however, as a human being I know that there are
things that have happened to people that I should not repeat
insensitively. I do not think that it is being politically correct or
incorrect, its just respect.
I shoot to tell stories, but I also do so to teach, exchange ideas,
show shared and varying ideas. All in all, photography has always
brought me to places that have changed my outlook on the world. As a
news photographer, I travel extensively to approach photography from a
different spiritual experience. The way I photograph in New York is
different from how I would photograph in say Brazil or Iran.
I do not expect that bigotry or racism will look the same as it did
50-60 years ago. I do not even expect it to go away. These days men
and women hide behind their friends and those who support their
insensitivity, they hide behind blogs and chat groups and they hide
behind their cameras because they for some reason believe that the
curse of being black will rub off on them.
I believe a MAN SHOULD feel for his fellow man. If I say I hurt, he
should want to know why. When this same man prefers instead to stand
on the grounds that cause my pain, he says a lot about himself, his
family and his ancestors. But what would I know. Black people were
once thought to be uneducated duds who were only good for one thing,
slavery, building the world, raping, and of course (Doug and BOB)when
you were done with them lynch them on the weekend. "That usually bring
the mob out......."

Post by Douglas Shea
Google is the last, not the first place I would turn to for etymology.
 
Doug
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: WARNING about Dr. Mark Meijer c/o Global
RolleiClub and...
 
nothing political about it at all -- POLITE tho, not politically
correct or incorrect - nothing wrong with being sensitive to others.
 And regardless of the political leanings of Lynchburg or the Lynch
brothers or any dictionary definition, i think it is clear that the
general association of the word lynching is with african-americans and
totally understand the gentleman's reaction and simple wish to be
respected.  If you google the word lynching, note that all of the
photos depict african-americans.  note the following google entry
about lynching -
The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch
(1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in
Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by
whites against African American slaves. However, whites who protested
against this were also in danger of being lynched.
so lynching may apply to whites also, but against those whites who
protested against the lynching of african americans.  
so for y'all who have an argument with Dr. Rollei Scammer, go ahead
and mob him, whatever - just leave history in the past

www.royephotography.com
Portrait and Editorial Photographer

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Thanks for your me

[Peter J Nebergall]

I have piles and piles of work fone with an old uncoated Leitz Elmar....
a tessar type, and it is, if anything, sharper than the Biotars, the
Primoplans, and, sadly, some of the Xenons. I measure a lens by whether
it "takes off" for me, does good work in my hand, and sometimes a bit of
flare (Biotar) bakes a great portrait. BTW, I have a # of Biotars in
different mount (I have Contax D's, among other things, ) and they are
spectacularly different from each other.

My favorite old glass, per "what it can do for me"? The old uncoated
collapsible f2 Sonnar for Contax II. a third of my show-gallery stuff is
off that combination.
and the coated f1.5 sonnar? As good as my Nikons. Customers think so
too.

Ruddy, here in Columbia there is a j-school, and the kiddies are full of
attitude, to the degree it severely restricts their ability to do a good
job with their cameras. I use the old stuff, and take fiendish delight
in getting in their beardless faces with it -- and whipping their butts.
Like I say in STREET PHOTOG, its how you play it. An old one pointed in
the right direction at the right time beats the tar out of the latest
digital scheisskamera -- that isn't.

best to all

PJ Nebergall

Post by Eric Goldstein

Post by Ruddy Roye
Why do I hear so many photogs run away from tessar lens

Umm, ignorance? Stupidity? The desire to have large pieces of glass
to
compensate for their small... brains? ;-)
I really can't say I've run into all that much prejudice against
Tessars. The large format f/9 Nikkors are Tessar-types and they have
a
killer rep. In terms of pix, just about everything shot on Speed
Graphics over the years have been shot with Tessar-type lenses.
Generally, modern photographers look for lens speed more than
anything
else, and that may have a great deal to do with such an ill-informed
prejudice. At f/8, you would be hard pressed to see the difference
between a good MF Tessar and just about any other MF lens...
Eric Goldstein
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[Peter J Nebergall]

Danke schoen. Nunmehr, bitte... hein?

P.J. Nebergall

Post by Sander B Friedman
Re: the attached (and others!)
Enough already ... this is a Rollei List ... not a soapbox. I am
quite
sure that NO feelings were meant to be hurt, and none should be.
Ganz ganuch
S. B. Friedman
Ö¿Ö¬
n
------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug -
Please do not twist my words - I did not and do not accuse you of
anything racist. Totally insensitive to the person who very